NetNews Offline 2/NetNews Offline Volume 2.iso/news/comp/sys/amiga/misc-part1/1938

Internet Message Format | 1996-08-05 | 11.9 KB

Path: zetnet.co.uk!demon!hchworth.demon.co.uk
From: Paul Chan <paul>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: The March Amiga?
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 10:28:28 GMT
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[e-mail] (Eric Szulczewski) wrote:

Eric vs Gary [again]
[lots of snips]

>GP> We keep forgetting that Amiga Technologies/Escom has over tripled their
>GP> initial investment. That's a LOT of cash just to make a run or two of
>GP> computers and bail out. Nope, I don't see that happening unless the market
>GP> dries up BEFORE they can get the R&D done.
>
>I did the math a long time ago on that.  It is possible, of course, for
>Escom to get out with a profit from their investments by selling out
>the run they've already completed.  But it does look like they're in
>for a slightly longer haul than that.  End of that argument, Gary.

I don`t think I`ll really trust AT`s motives until I`ve seen the spec and UK
price of the PPC Amigas, and to a lesser extent, the A1200Plus.

>
>GP> Why contract out the coding as they are?
>
>Does that scare you a bit?  We're still not sure about the
>subcontractor for the OS.  I'd love to know what AT told them about the
>requirements for OS4.

As would everybody else. I`m sure that everybody has their own ideas about OS
upgrades. I`d be happy if they incorporporated lots of new and useful features
and fixed a few bugs. Just so that I don`t have to run patches and utilities to
start with the system that I want.

[snip]
>GP> Why the 'Surfer Package' (that took extra money and time)?
>
>Well, to make money, for one thing.  Only Oracle seems to be entering
>that type of market right now.  The problem is that by providing a
>full-fledged 1200 with the Net suite, the price is significantly higher
>than Oracle's product.  And that Net suite had better be good, or the
>Surfer package (what an awful name!) will fail.

The surfer package is something that`s eminently better as a black box with
infrared keyboard - sound like something from an AT press release?
It should cost no more than a Saturn with Intenet add-on. ie in the UK no more
than 399UK pounds.

Nobody who knows anything about the Internet would go for a 14.4k modem, and I
know I`d be narked if they didn`t include a 28.8k option. How about if they
markeed registered versions of just the software and let us choose a modem
(unles their deal is cheaper than what we`d be able to get a, say, Motorola
3400 for).

>
>GP> The first three months I would not have argued so strongly FOR
>GP> Amiga Technologies. But, if you add up all these 'Why' type things
>GP> you will begin to see that they DO have a plan.
>
>They may have some sort of plan, but I'm still not sure what it is, AT
>isn't volunteering information, and I have reservations about the parts
>we do know about.  And I'm not alone, Gary.  You can tell just from the
>posts here.

We all want what`s best for the Amiga, I`m sure. But we are also consumers as
well. The price has got to be right, and that`s something that hasn`t impressed
me since the relaunch of the Amiga. Tech specs are disappointing too. We need
somthing to re-inspire us, in terms of price and tech spec.

>
>GP> >There are questions that have to be asked when it comes to this
>GP> >subject.  We as Amiga users have incredible power over the decisions
>GP> >made at AT due to the fact that we're the ones buying this system.
>
>GP> True with 1 caveat! Amiga Technologies understands that we
>GP> (Usenet/Fidonet) represents a SMALL minority of current/former Amiga users
>GP> and an even smaller minority of current Amiga purchasers. Long term, our
>GP> voice is important.
>
>Well, I meant "we" in the sense of the larger community of Amiga owners
>who have stayed loyal.  I don't pretend to acknowledge that
>Usenet/Fidonet participants are a majority of those people.  We on the
>nets are just the ones with the immediate feedback capability.

Plus, we can usually assume that those of us with net access who still talk
about the Amiga are more likely to decide to buy a decently designed and priced
Amiga... especially if we have had a part in helping AT decide what
should/should not be included, and the price that it all comes in at.

>
>GP> For this year, Amiga Technologies should be chasing
>GP> the new 'entry level' people with the 1200 Surfer Package. These entry
>GP> level users now will be what adds to the current user base when the PPC's
>GP> come out. THAT will make this a viable solution again.
>
>But can AT cut through the M$ brainwash factory that "more power =
>better"?  Or will the public see the 1200 package (I refuse to call it
>"Surfer") as a toy?

It`ll continue to look like a toy the more that the big-box PC`s get into the
general public`s consciousness. In the UK, an Amiga big box should be designed
to look apart from the PC crowd. The most obvious idea is to have a custom
coloured box. I for one will admit that attractive cases would put any
machine/item, be it hi-fi, video, TV, computer higher up my list as I don`t
want to be looking at something that I can look at day in day out and get a
positive reaction... why else do you think Sports coupe`s stand out from the
general boring family saloon crowd?

>
>GP> >I think that these questions are valid, but corporations, like any other
>GP> >physical entity, tend to follow the path of least resistance:
>
>GP> >1) By buying the 1200s and 4000Ts out there, we are contributing to the
>GP> >coffers of AT's R&D efforts.  But do we want outdated machines?
>GP> >Especially with the PPC announcement.  Amiga owners are patient by
>GP> >nature when it comes to the system.  How many people won't wait a year?
>
>GP> See, made my point. We WILL wait a year. They are/should be chasing new,
>GP> entry level buyers who will expand into that new PPC later on.
>
>These are rhetorical questions, Gary...

I`ll answer them - I don`t want to buy an outdated A1200, that isn`t
necessarily compatible with a few games (which I may have) at a higher price
than I could have bought them for before C= collapsed. I don`t want to buy an
overpriced A4000T with it`s associated memory problems and outdated ZIII slots.

Certainly not to benefit AT. And definately not to use either. It`s just like
asking several thousand Amigans to cough up some money so they can develop new
machines. AT might have shot themselves in the foot when announcing the PPC -
seasoned Amigans immediately forgot about any thoughts of buying the current
machines and will wait.

>
>I didn't make a point.  I asked a question about current Amiga owners,
>since they're the only ones who seem to know about the 1200s/4000Ts.
>
>GP> >2) By buying the 1200s and 4000Ts, are we showing approval as a group
>GP> >toward this technology, which most everyone here says is outdated?  If
>GP> >we are, will AT also think we approve and delay, or even worse, not
>GP> >really bother with the PPC for a while?

By buying another A1200, you are encouraging AT to stick to their high prices,
the net result is that we have seasoned Amigans with 2, or even 4 (maybe more
Amigas) and new buyers going straight for the PCs. I support Amigas, I like
them, but I will NOT waste my money buying an overpriced item that is of little
use/economy to me as it stands.

I *am* waiting for the PPC, but if AT can improve the A1200Plus to the point
where they essentially have an AGAPlus chipset (HD disk drives, extra sound,
DSP?), and an easy upgrade path to PPC with no penalties against buying a
similr native PPC machine, then I`ll get one (at the right price).

>
>GP> No long term money can be made from current models. Those of us buying the
>GP> new stock are just upgrading from 500-600 or ECS or we are the ones who
>GP> wanted a 4000 and couldn't get one back when.
>
>Again, rhetorical questions.  But you must admit that it's cheaper not
>to do R&D if these models are selling.

AT should know that any cash made from these AGA machines to relieve backlogs
and demand will not last long. The technology will not last long, maybe this
Xmas, certainly not till Xmas 1997.

>
>GP> >3) If we wait and not buy the systems available now, will AT go
>GP> >belly-up, in which case we'll never see a new Amiga system?  It looks
>GP> >like Escom is looking to see whether or not AT will sink or float, and
>GP> >if it starts to sink, will Escom pull the trigger?
>
>GP> Nope, too much invested now.
>
>Guess what I'm going to say?  You didn't have to answer these.  I just
>wanted to clarify the questions that a lot of people are asking.
>
>So a corporation is going to keep a money-losing subsidiary afloat in
>order to lose more money?  I hope the German tax code is as lax about
>businesses as the US's is.  That's the only reason I'd do something
>like that.

They`ll certainly cut their losses if AT looks to be going into a slow death.
Any sensible non-fanatic Amiga owner who weighed up the news and facts would
forget about getting an AGA machine and wait for the PPC. If this wrecks AT`s
plans to get cash for R&D, then I`m afraid they`ve picked the wrong "fanatics"



>
>GP> >I hope that none of these are true, and that AT does have the best in
>GP> >mind for the Amiga, but illustrated like that, it is a no-win
>GP> >situation.  The question has to be put out, and I hope that
>GP> >Kittel/Bourdin can refute this line of argument.
>
>Notice you didn't respond to this section, Gary...

Well, can you think of a mindlessly optimisitic answer to that? ;)

[snip]

>
>GP> >No, what I really want to see, Gary, was your justification on the
>GP> >technological end of it all.  I wanted to see you fly through hoops
>GP> >saying that this was the greatest thing in the universe and that
>GP> >everyone at AT were geniuses for putting the 1300 out.  However, I
>GP> >don't think you'd really do that, even if you are the most gormless AT
>GP> >camp follower on occasion.  But the disguises are off.  If AT does the
>GP> >1300 for money, that's perfectly fine and a good thing in the minds of
>GP> >everyone here.  But trying to disguise that with other reasons would be
>GP> >disingenuous.  Glad you and I both see it that way.
>
>GP> Still think the Surfer stuff is going to do great! That in itself is
>GP> something we've never had.
>
>I don't think it's going to do as great as you think it is.  It's going
>to be a fair-to-middling success at best.  It makes the fact that
>they'd better not make any false moves with the PPC even more
>important.

If it isn`t at the *right price*, the surfer pack will fade into
insignificance. There are plenty of 400UK pound solutions to netsurfing, Saturn
and Philips CDi to start with. That Oracle box to come. The Amiga should be
pitched in there at the same price with all the netsurfing stuff (14.4k, more
for the 28.8k, of course). A decent Amiga has many chances of beating away the
opposition and becoming a string force in the low end, but it`ll never become
popular until the price comes down.

e.g. CDTV and CD32 failed to start at low prices, Amiga A500 succeeded but
eventually became part of the cause for the downfall of the Amiga for being too
old), etc etc etc.

>
>GP>  TEAM AMIGA is a grassroots
>GP>  movement designed to provide
>GP>  support to all Amiga users
>GP>  and to Amiga Technologies!
>
>Could you please define "support"?  Is constructive criticism part of
>your definition (you yourself have even acknowledged that my criticism
>has been uniformly constructive)?  The last thing Team AMIGA should be,
>and I think that even Rick would agree, is a hotbed of monolithic,
>uncritical opinion.  If Amiga owners didn't have differences with the
>company that produced the machine, we'd be abandoning an eleven-year
>tradition.

And where would we get all these arguments from ;)